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Post by zer0 on Apr 1, 2009 0:50:44 GMT -5
There was a lot of discussion about stats and transferring stats. It is something that should be reviewed. As of now... I don't have the time to come up with coherent suggestions, but I would implore that people reiterate their concerns and suggestions about the stats system in this environment so it won't get lost in the greatness of Spam!
This is a collaborative effort from us Role-Players into making the Role-Playing system more fun and fair for all of us!
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Post by zer0 on Apr 1, 2009 0:51:52 GMT -5
Current state as outlined by JustinK, gonna lay it out so you semantics fools can understand it; 259's baseline stats started at 90. That's 259 only. When you transfer from 259, you get your 259 stats. no baseline stats, no new stats, only what you had. 42, since it was set up with the idea that a lot of transfers were coming, started their newbies out at 120, since the average for 259 characters was give or take +30 EXP, mostly due to Leon doling out EXP like candy to some of his more favored people, and the fact that 259's been around for 3 years. Now, I don't understand where this '259' bias comes in, as its basically just saying "You come over with the stats that you used to have." There is no addition or reduction for coming from 259. Do you understand now? Christ. the transfer rules appear to be made with only the 259ers in mind. The 90 base stat for transfers was not outlined, only implied in the rules. This implication would only be caught on to by 259ers, since 552, either old or new, never had the starting point of 90 stats. This leaves us, the non-259ers, with a lack of information. Umm, read what I just posted? I don't how much clearer I could be. Let's put it in an equation. The total amount of stat points SR has on 42, represented by the variable s, is found by taking the amount of gained exp, x, and adding it to the base amount of stats on 42, which is 120. 552's base stats is 40, and SR's total stats on 552 were 74. s = 120 + xx can be found by subtracting the base amount of stats on 552 from SR's total stats. x = 74 - 40 x = 34 Now you just plug in the numbers. s = 120 + 34 s = 154 The total amount of stats SR has on 42 is 154. Is that any easier to understand? To clarify the problem, since some are mistaking this for "artificial inflation." First, some summary: transfers from PHS 259 were asked to keep their traditional base stat of 90 EXP from their board along with their earned EXP in order to give a "head start" to new native characters who would not have earned experience, but would be granted 120 EXP base stats. A good system in its purpose to promote the making of new characters. The staff did well in that regard. As for PHS 552 or even Hircine transfers like me, the problem wasn't in having 90 base stat, but in the fact that we were not told such a base stat existed for transfers. I looked on the stats rules page: there is not a single mention of transfers ever using 90 EXP as their base stat, only that "transfers" will "pay the price for transferring" by not receiving the extra 30 EXP. That might make sense to 259ers who are transferring, but folks from Hircine or 552 could never make that connection due to their own systems, and would default to 120 without knowing. The problem here isn't the system of 90 for transfers, the problem was the lack of clarity on the issue. Folks without a past in 259 were left truly ignorant to the truth, and followed what they assumed were the defaults for everyone else. That's what I did, and that's what Park and Dirk did. If I as a statless RPer have to change my default to 90 EXP, that's fine, but I can tell you right now that I'll be weak as hell, especially since I have no stats to transfer and no fights to consider, so keep that in mind. Further, 552ers will also be at a disadvantage to other transfers as well, since their old system was based on just four traits instead of six, and so 90 EXP will actually hurt them as they reorganize their stats. Just something to keep in mind. But this was the fault of language. Had the staff caught these mistakes, we'd be fine, but everyone made a mistake here. I just hope the staff clears it up. Just replace 552's base stat of 40 with that of 90, like Patrick said. Done. Then add the earned EXP, and you've got a problem solved. Well aren't we pmsing and ignorant. The advantage as you define it is not the same. The base stats have everything to do with the difference here. SR moved his base stats up to 120 to reach the new student base. Transfers were not allowed to do that, at least not that the rules say. This board, from 259 had a base stat of 90. Now time for some math: 90(259 base stats)<120(42 base stats) Now 90 is 30 less then 120 right? 259 transfers did not get to add in the 30 extra in an attempt to keep the difference between transfers and "new" students more even, in an effort to keep stat whores from appearing right from the start, which also factored into the stat caps based on post count regardless of whether or not you had xp left over. SR moved his stats up to 120 base. This is understandable because on Karel's 552 there are only four stats, you have to make the difference up elsewhere. Thus if we go back to the equation up to, he starts out 30 ahead of transfers from 259. My idea which I proposed after about of about a second of thought equalizes things a bit more, to the intent of the staff of this site. Now I'd appreciate it if you at least made your self a little less ignorant before you call me ignorant. I still think a major change of a system of operation needs to be discussed before I go and just change it. Thus like I said before. The people that disregarded the stat rules need to fix their stats. Really instead of ignoring things you should have brought your concerns up with a moderator. transferring from one system another... is difficult... i personally don't think 42ers should get a native base boost... because when you join a new board as a new character... be it 259 or 552... you didn't get a native base boost... when you make a new character... you don't get a native base boost... and people WILL make new characters... there WILL be natives... and we WILL try to put them on reserves and ignore them. Lawl Al. But in all seriousness, I'm not sure about the natives not getting a stat boost. Because while most of the transfers will have higher stats than most natives (A few had stats relatively close to natives, like Adrian), I think the stat boost is only because this way, natives won't have their asses handed to them on a silver plate by transfers. But that's just me. It's ultimately up to staff, to figure out what to do. While it has a good intention, the penalty might have had unforeseen consequences. I think getting owned by transfers is part of the process. We've all had to go through it, and that's just the game we play. Besides, it'd only solve the issue temporarily, so while it did encourage new characters, it might hurt people who want to keep theirs. Meh, I really have no issues with whether new students get a stat boost or not. If I had to downgrade Ryuu's stats for it to become fair, I'd do so. Yeah, Ryuu might become weaker than before, and his Qi requirements might have to adjusted, seeing as it would take me quite some time to reach the requirements for it currently. Alright kiddies, relax and take two steps back. I really don't need a bitch fight on my hands when I have three papers to write. The reason we put the natives base stats at 120 was because the majority of characters on this board would be transfers, and possibly discourage new characters because they would be so weak against the influx of transfers. But what is a board without native characters right? Hence why we boosted the stat so that the weaker natives would be a little higher so they were on the same tier as the transfers. Is this permanent? We don't know, depending on how well things go, we may gradually lower this base stat to a lower number like the rest of the Xin boards. Any questions can be directed to me via PM and I will look at them as soon as I can. For now, relax and enjoy yourselves, and just double check your stats to make sure things are in order. Everything can be found in the rules section..if I see any flaming in this discussion, there are going to be problems. This includes name calling and calling out people on their opinions. Play nice, or I won't. <3
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Post by zer0 on Apr 1, 2009 1:15:20 GMT -5
DiscussionYou called him dumb Jay. Don't forget so quickly. And that's a sensible point Patrick, I like it. But I did take this to a Moderator, it's just that Park here tried explaining it to Emi without having understood the transfer rule. But it doesn't matter, because the rule is flawed, so I think that negates any supposed crime that the 552 transfers would have committed. It was human error, after all. So like Matthew said, 552ers should temporarily drop their starting experience until the staff approves of a new transfer system. But it has to be done. Transfers can't just be expected to go without an equal share of the penalty that other transferred received. I know, right? Some more thought should have been put into the transfer system. The other Xin boards aside from 259 should have been put into consideration when the topic of transfers came up. EDIT: Also, in my defense, when I first joined and read over everything I never came across anything that said I had to use the base stats from the board I transferred over from. If I did, this issue probably wouldn't have been brought up because my character would have been severely crippled due to the flawed system. Perhaps this was a blessing in disguise, bringing some issues that need to be discussed out into the light? No dumb dumb, I meant the people who transferred over and thought that they should baseline and then add. thats artificial stat inflation. New characters get the new stats *shrug* I didn't bitch about Stu being just as strong as new characters. I started only about 10 EXP over a normal new character. Hey, I wanted to continue to develop SR since I wasn't fully done with him on 552. Not only that, but I didn't want to be too far behind the more experienced characters since people tend to overplay the significance of stats. Another minor thing that comes to mind is the fact that the new 552 has been around for less than a year. When compared to the age of 259, it gives the 552ers a severe handicap in the amount of development they could accomplish. Unfortunately, there's not really much I could do about the issue of time. EDIT: Directed at Kayna SR no one is blaming you, at least I'm not. And you are right stats I find are commonly overplayed and overpraised. Sure there is a difference in others abilities but not as much as a lot of people seem to make them, I've noticed that this is everyone at somepoint to some degree, myself included. I remember when I started on 552 doubling someone's stats in almost anything was just about the equivalent of saying it was twice as good. At least i found it to be unwritten, so little Patrick with 10 dex goes up against Stein with like 40. Yeah I got raped. So all in all I don't know how i feel about stats vs no stats I can see the pros and cons of both. Which is where the rp factor comes in, so when Patrick got a little better and dex was 20/40 against another dude I won the fight because I grappled and the guy didnt know how to grapple back, neglecting any real stat bonus there. Alright kiddies, relax and take two steps back. I really don't need a bitch fight on my hands when I have three papers to write. The reason we put the natives base stats at 120 was because the majority of characters on this board would be transfers, and possibly discourage new characters because they would be so weak against the influx of transfers. But what is a board without native characters right? Hence why we boosted the stat so that the weaker natives would be a little higher so they were on the same tier as the transfers. Is this permanent? We don't know, depending on how well things go, we may gradually lower this base stat to a lower number like the rest of the Xin boards. Any questions can be directed to me via PM and I will look at them as soon as I can. For now, relax and enjoy yourselves, and just double check your stats to make sure things are in order. Everything can be found in the rules section..if I see any flaming in this discussion, there are going to be problems. This includes name calling and calling out people on their opinions. Play nice, or I won't. <3
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Post by Allen Daughtry on Apr 1, 2009 11:03:27 GMT -5
In light of last night's discussion, I wanted to post up what I've collected to be a potential solution to the problem based on things I read from last night, and some things I've been thinking as well. This stuff is probably the same as what others have thought up, but I wanted to post it up to give it a place to be seen. Firstly, I want to clarify the basics of every stats system from every XIN board that I know of. I'll list those I know exist as well, but have no knowledge of their system. PHS 42: 120 EXP for starting stats - installed into 6 traits - equal spread of 20 each stat PHS 259: 90 EXP for starting stats - installed into 6 traits - equal spread of 15 each stat "New" PHS 552: 40 EXP for starting stats - installed into 4 traits - equal spread of 10 each stat Hircine High: Statless "Old" PHS 552: Unknown to me Point Hop: Unknown to me Now, I wanted to further clarify the current problem. The real reason this all sparked up was because the language of the stats rules page relied on just 259 transfers, it did not establish a default transfer base stat for everyone to use. This leads one to understand why all 259ers would transfer with their 90 EXP, and this was done to give a head start to native 42 characters, who have 120 EXP. But the rule is merely that transfers come over with whatever stats they have, they do not use the 120 EXP base stat as their own. This would not cause a problem if other boards also used 90 EXP as their base stat, but alas, they don't. Here's a quick sign of what it would look like if the original system was kept for all transfers: 259: 90 EXP base + earned EXP 50 Point Base Stat Difference 552: 40 EXP base + earned EXP Hircine: No base stats - what would they use? I think it's fairly obvious why such a system would lead to confusion and unfair measurements between transfers. A transfer from 552 would have had to earn 50 EXP at their old board alone JUST to be equal with 259 transfers, and that doesn't even include the 259 transfers' own earned stats. Forget the native boost advantage - thats' fine - the problem here was transfer-to-transfer inequality. Further, there was confusion on what Hircinians could use, and there hasn't even been mention of what could happen when transfers from Point Hope or "old" 552 transfer over. In order for the 42 Transfer system to be fair to all boards and that each transfer only has 30 EXP behind that of the natives, a new system must be implemented. This is a fairly simple solution, honestly. If the staff establishes 90 EXP as the default base stat for all transfers to use, then each stat board is equal with one another, and then each will be at equal measure behind the native characters. Also, in regard to Patrick's comment last night about giving 552 transfers 120 EXP instead of 90 to "catch up with the 259 transfers," I did the math and realized that it wouldn't be the case. If 552 transfers replace their old base stats with that used by 259, then their 6 trait spread would be equal. Therefore, the staff should establish 90 EXP as the default transfer starting stat, to replace any prior base stat. And obviously, all stat boards transfer with their earned EXP without a problem. My only concern now is for Hircine transfers like myself. In my discussion with Matthew over it when I transferred, he said that I should be fine with 120 EXP, since I had no fights that could be claimed for earned EXP. I think this would be a fair measurement for Hircine and any other transfer character, since Hiricnians traditionally fight only for plot, and they may not compare in number to the amount of fights had by statters. Therefore, I suggest that the Hircine policy stand that Hircine transfers receive 120 EXP as their base stat unless they attempt to bring over earned EXP, in which case they are bumped down to 90 EXP like every other transfer. Beyond all that, I wanted to voice my worry that the native boost policy may be uneffective. While it does give new characters a temporary advantage, the policy does not keep out veteran transfers, it merely cuts out 30 EXP from them, and since most veterans have close to 100 earned EXP or more, they'd still have a clear advantage over any native. Further, the policy only helps to hinder transfers that have new characters, making it difficult for them to transfer over a young character that they might like more than a character they would have to make just to be equal with others. Even more so, the policy of trying to persuade people to make new characters instead of using characters they like and wish to continue developing goes against the nature of RP freedom, and will only help to stagnate the board's activity. Besides, veterans tend to make new characters soon enough when they join a board. And we've all had to cope with the power of transfers - it's part of the game. Trying to stem that tide is simply redundant. And that's all I've got for now. |
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Aternity
New Member
[M:1484]
"Portals?"
Posts: 940
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Post by Aternity on Apr 1, 2009 12:14:53 GMT -5
Just for you guys, Point Hope runs on 90XP installed into 5 stats.
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Post by Keeper Of Secrets on Apr 1, 2009 14:22:38 GMT -5
I won't attempt to reiterate what Ally said, but instead provide you all with a system I think may fix this issue.
So that you all know, we have no intention of dropping our natives points down. We are flattered that some of you like 42 enough to want to transfer your old/other characters to this board, but bear in mind that it is a privilege to transfer, not a right. Now having said that, and no that was the the opinion of the entire staff t'was just me, I'll move on.
What I think would work is if transfers from other boards all started with 120 exp and then added their fight exp to that. This way transfers could be stronger than natives, but they wouldn't always be. As for boards like Hircine High, I believe the same policy should be in effect. They start with 120 and any fights they would like to claim for extra XP must provide a link and evidence, just like the current plan for items.
With that said, could you guys try to keep in mind that we are working on this as fast as we can. It is NOT our fault that New 552 only gives you 40 points and 4 stats to spend them in. So please bear with us while we attempt to accommodate you! -Thankies
-KoS
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Post by zer0 on Apr 1, 2009 22:08:50 GMT -5
I'm personally in no rush, just thought that some important discussion was made and that it should be kept in a safe place where it belonged. Members have little active discourse with the staff during their meetings and as this is a relatively important concern, I thought people would like to voice their opinion on how they think stats should work. It helps to talk about things if you want to compromise. It appears to me that the proposed working system from KoS matches what SR had outlined. Umm, read what I just posted? I don't how much clearer I could be. Let's put it in an equation. The total amount of stat points SR has on 42, represented by the variable s, is found by taking the amount of gained exp, x, and adding it to the base amount of stats on 42, which is 120. 552's base stats is 40, and SR's total stats on 552 were 74. s = 120 + xx can be found by subtracting the base amount of stats on 552 from SR's total stats. x = 74 - 40 x = 34 Now you just plug in the numbers. s = 120 + 34 s = 154 The total amount of stats SR has on 42 is 154. Is that any easier to understand? |
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SR Park
New Member
A Devil in God's Country
Posts: 35
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Post by SR Park on Apr 1, 2009 22:37:44 GMT -5
The reason why I initially thought up that equation when I was transferring Seung-Ri here was because it made the most sense to me. Why bring over the stats that you didn't earn (i.e. the base stats you get at creation)? The only stats that should transfer over are the ones you had to work for.
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Matrim Gallagher
New Member
THE ORIGINAL MR. CHEEZECAKE[M:58]
Ore wa omo hito!
Posts: 721
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Post by Matrim Gallagher on Apr 2, 2009 0:44:01 GMT -5
I won't attempt to reiterate what Ally said, but instead provide you all with a system I think may fix this issue. So that you all know, we have no intention of dropping our natives points down. We are flattered that some of you like 42 enough to want to transfer your old/other characters to this board, but bear in mind that it is a privilege to transfer, not a right. Now having said that, and no that was the the opinion of the entire staff t'was just me, I'll move on. What I think would work is if transfers from other boards all started with 120 exp and then added their fight exp to that. This way transfers could be stronger than natives, but they wouldn't always be. As for boards like Hircine High, I believe the same policy should be in effect. They start with 120 and any fights they would like to claim for extra XP must provide a link and evidence, just like the current plan for items. With that said, could you guys try to keep in mind that we are working on this as fast as we can. It is NOT our fault that New 552 only gives you 40 points and 4 stats to spend them in. So please bear with us while we attempt to accommodate you! -Thankies -KoS So... would this apply to 259 transfers as well? I'm not fishing for stats here or anything, I just want to know if this applies to all transfers. Because it says "other boards" but I don't know if that means other than 42 or other then 259. *looks at Adrian* Poor bastard..... haha. Tangent, I know... I know.. but still. Can't help feeling bad for the guy. |
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Post by Keeper Of Secrets on Apr 2, 2009 1:37:07 GMT -5
I think we will have something better out soon. No worries my motos. I have only been working on the board and school. Not even RPing my character ^_^
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Post by zer0 on Apr 10, 2009 1:10:48 GMT -5
Confirmed and new Transfer Stats Rules
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Adrian
New Member
Earth Dragon Potentiate[M:95]
...that was a bit disappointing.
Posts: 503
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Post by Adrian on Apr 10, 2009 12:51:12 GMT -5
And this new rule even counts the Hircine transfers, who rarely have more than, like... three or four fights to their name?
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Post by seishounohana on Apr 10, 2009 13:36:02 GMT -5
Yes, I believe. They start out with 90. If they want to claim less than three fights for exp they can put it in their profiles, etc.
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Adrian
New Member
Earth Dragon Potentiate[M:95]
...that was a bit disappointing.
Posts: 503
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Post by Adrian on Apr 11, 2009 1:43:27 GMT -5
That still seems a little unfair, in my opinion.
Could someone, then, just say their character transferred, but has been at Moral Crest for a while, making them more of a native than a transfer, and take the 120 stat points instead of being shoehorned into, like... 93?
I mean, don't get me wrong, while I didn't know what I was getting into with this character, I believe it's totally fair that I have to start out weaker than everyone, because that's the rule. It's just people who want to transfer from Hircine i dont' think deserve to get the shaft like that.
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Adrian
New Member
Earth Dragon Potentiate[M:95]
...that was a bit disappointing.
Posts: 503
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Post by Adrian on Apr 11, 2009 2:19:52 GMT -5
Technically, anyone could just re-work their bio and consider themselves a native of Moral Crest in some way or form, taking the 120 Stat points at the downside of not adding any previous fight experience.... Can I do that?  |
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